Łukasz Kaźmierczak: We will talk about sport related to politics. On the anniversary of the Russian aggression against Ukraine, the International Olympic Committee has issued a statement in which it expresses its solidarity and sympathy with the Ukrainian people, while expressing its readiness to make its modest contribution peace efforts, and this modest contribution must be, among other things, that it allows the participation of Belarusian and Russian athletes in next year’s Olympic Games in Paris. Some countries oppose it. Does the IOC have the possibility of hosting the Games with Russian and Belarusian athletes under a neutral flag?

Krzysztof Westfal: It would not be the first time. Such practices have been used by the IOC Executive Committee before. This statement is actually another one, because in January there was a statement from the same IOC executive committee that the Russians and the Belarusians, so it is said, that Russia is the aggressor and that Belarusians support aggression, so they will be allowed to participate in the Olympics in neutral colors.

What does “neutral colors” mean? It’s supposed to be without Russian colors, but I’ve seen such tricks before that, for example, they lined up with bracelets in Russian colors, or one was in a red tracksuit, the other was in white and the third in blue.

Here, you have to go to the essentials. According to the Olympic Charter, there are Olympic symbols, we learned that even at school, and the meaning of the symbols: rings, Olympic flame, flag, so of course, according to the Olympic Charter, each athlete and each nation has the possibility of participating in the Olympic Games, that is, passing not only for the purposes of the IOC, but also in our Polish sports law, that the CEP, in turn, that is, a member of the IOC, must support the activities of athletes wishing to participate in the Games. There is nowhere in the card that athletes can start in neutral colors. However, it is recognized that the use of all these symbols, both Olympic and national, is a certain privilege. So the ability to participate in the Olympics, but without national markings, is supposed to be a certain disciplinary sanction, a certain sanction. The goal is to find a way to do it all…

And here is an important question. The governments of dozens of countries, including Poland, say as governments, not as sports organizations, that they do not accept the participation of Russians and Belarusians in the Games. They ask for an explanation of what this principle of neutrality is according to the IOC. And this document was also signed by the United States, France, Canada, Great Britain and Germany.

You may ask: so what? This sport is constructed in such a way that references to national teams, Olympic teams, national colors are meant to create an association in our minds that this is a national team, that these athletes represent the country, and that is not entirely true because they represent if it is in the case of football, for example, where the team represents PZPN, which is a Polish sports association and has the ability to name a national team, but this is not that they go there as Poles, but as a representation of PZPN. And here we have a similar situation. These athletes represent the Polish Olympic Committee, and it is the Polish Olympic Committee, as an independent organization, that has statutory powers, because the Sports Law directly mentions the existence and functioning of the Polish Olympic Committee, but in fact it is an independent association that can do almost anything what it wants?

Just the IOC?

The IOC can do even more. It is no coincidence that all sports organisations, the largest ones, are created and have their headquarters in Switzerland.

What does that mean? Neutrality and independence?

Exactly. Switzerland, on the one hand, has perpetual neutrality, there are only two countries in the world that can boast of such a status, and it is connected, that they are independent as a country, and they also have certain statutory guarantees with regard to the functioning of associations that nobody can order them to do anything, nobody can forbid them anything.

So it’s only the goodwill of the IOC?

Of course.

What if there is illegal activity involved? As was the case during the World Cup in Qatar.

If we are talking about corruption, then in the first place, and this is what I wrote in my scientific thesis, there is disciplinary responsibility. All organizations, like the IOC or FIFA, have their own codes of conduct, peer tribunals, arbitration tribunals, which are supposed to lead to liability, but most often it is disciplinary liability , that is, of a withdrawal from the structures, an attempt to save a good reputation, and of course to prevent this type of further action. On the other hand, corruption itself was the case in Poland before the adoption of a special article of the Criminal Code, corruption in sport is very important, it was not punished. An ancient Roman rule says that if there are no rules, there is no punishment or crime.

Now, if I understand correctly, it is.

In Poland, yes. But to punish such a Blatter in Poland, he would have to commit this crime in Poland, and he was prosecuted, as far as I remember, by the American authorities, because on American soil he committed such an act and no other.

If he was sitting on Swiss soil…

Exactly.

There is such a thing as the letter of the law and the spirit of the law. Everyone knows that Russian athletes in particular are supported by the state, with the possible exception of tennis players who have private sources and fund themselves, but everything else in sport is an area that promotes the Russian Federation and the Sochi games were the best proof of that. Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky said the ban was aimed at preventing Russia from using the international event in any way for its propaganda. So we are now talking about the spirit of the law.

We go beyond my specialization and now it will be more my thought. Of course, yes, we had a problem with organizing such events recently. Western countries know their financial problems, their economic problems, and they don’t really want to invest in events like the European championships or the world championships or the Olympics, these are huge costs.

Countries that like to promote themselves through sport invest.

Exactly. It is no coincidence that we recently have China, Russia, Qatar, that is to say countries that have to prove something to someone out here or to their own citizens, but we have known this for a long time, if we are talking about Russia, and we can probably refer to the times of the Soviet Union and to prove abroad is one thing, but we also have to prove to ourselves, to our fellow citizens , that we are united, strong and ready, the whole world is watching and supporting us. You can say that maybe you don’t have washing machines and you have to go to Ukraine for special supplies, but we are proud because we have the Olympics and the whole world admires us.

Will the IOC be put under pressure in this situation? They are independent, but there are also governments, dozens of countries that would like such a thing not to happen. Our sports minister, Kamil Bortniczuk, says a boycott is the final form, a card that is drawn at the last minute, but it is something that weighs on the Olympics. There have been boycotts in the past.

Yes, but at different times. 1980 Moscow and 1984 Los Angeles. Over time, most commentators have decided that these are overambitious actions, as this is just a sport. Bright. The nature of sport has changed a bit, and then it was also a question of politics.

Politically, 73% of Poles oppose the participation of Belarusians and Russians.

Only again, does he oppose the participation of Belarusians and Russians? Yes of course. But asking another question, would the same Poles support the boycott and non-participation of Polish athletes in the event of the participation of Russians and Belarusians? I don’t know. I don’t know if this question has been asked before.

But how real is it?

Unfortunately, the minister does not decide. He can talk, he can threaten and pressure, but he doesn’t decide, and that’s where we started, but the POC decides. And I think that fan pressure would be much greater.

You also said before entering the studio that a lot depends on the players themselves.

Yes. Mostly. Why didn’t the Polish football team play with the Russian team? And that’s because the players said they didn’t want to play. It comes from the players. PZNP had no choice, because if the players said so, there was a leak in the media, it was difficult to do anything about it, especially since the public support for such an idea was very high .

It depends a lot on the Olympic committees. The Polish Olympic Committee says it cannot imagine Polish competitors starting with Belarusians and Russians.

Exactly. And here we come to the point. If the POC objected and didn’t send the players, that’s not so simple either, because you have to be aware of how the POC works. The Polish Olympic Committee is a union of associations to which individual sports associations belong, that is, we have the Polish Olympic Committee, but it includes the Polish Athletics Association, the Polish Weightlifting Association , karate and canoeing, and the POC is elected once every few years. . The POC board has its own thoughts but the individual unions that are part of the POC will decide, if we have rowers let’s stick to water sports I was training myself and I know most of the representatives of these sports come from Poznan. If there’s a girl or a guy who spends four years preparing for the Olympics, it’s their only performance that matters and everyone wants to watch, I don’t know.

This is still an idea that Russians and Belarusians can launch, but only those who will denounce the war in Ukraine, or dissociate themselves from it in one way or another.

But. This is in line with the first statement, in January, that individuals or athletes who openly support the regime will not be admitted. And the question arises as to what is open and secret, in what mode it should be considered, and whether someone was recognized in April as a person who does not support, and later it turned out that he supports. I don’t know how this would be resolved, especially since these athletes will have nowhere to return.

I suspect politics will decide that anyway, in whatever form.

Exactly. We can no longer influence him.